Bailout Fiasco

Taxes, finance, economic theory, etc.

Re: Bailout Fiasco

Postby Yellow_Dog » Sat Dec 27, 2008 8:34 pm

The company used to match contributions to our 401k in company stock, with strings, in that you couldn't convert the stock into something else until you reached a certain age. And that is when I converted it, fortunately, as it isn't quite a penny stock yet, but last I looked it was closing in on a dime.
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Re: Bailout Fiasco

Postby 4tees » Sun Dec 28, 2008 10:41 am

Many people I know have had the value of their 401ks plummet, screwing up their retirement plans in the process. I understand why people contributed to a stock based retirement plan, they were encouraged by some form of employer matching or incentive, but they should not have been enticed to save for retirement in this way. As I have stated repeatedly over the years, average Americans should steer clear of the stock market. They should have stayed out of real estate speculation too. They should have been encouraged to save their money or invest using only low risk instruments, not take out home equity loans and consume an unviable economic model into a mirage of sustainable growth.

Now more and more “industries” are clamoring to be “bailed out” in some way. Instead of holding themselves and the beneficiaries of their excess responsible, they are committing economic terrorism…….threatening massive job losses unless a ransom is paid; a ransom with no strings attached or forced accountability for the elite who caused this mess.

The reality is these are not bailouts, the money will not be used to correct the fundamental problems in our economy, instead it is one last big handout to the wealthy, who are taking this last opportunity to steal the last of our national wealth so that they can continue to live in excess while everyone else struggles and suffers. These people are criminals and traitors, and should be treated as such. They do not care if they destroy the United States, so long as their lifestyle continues. Unfortunately too many Americans are still too brainwashed or proud to admit we have been living a big “conservative” lie for decades. It’s been called capitalism, but it has never been anything close to its namesake much less a free market of any kind.
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Re: Bailout Fiasco

Postby etowah » Sun Dec 28, 2008 8:52 pm

Many 401-k's match without requiring the employee to place the money in the stock market, or buy company stock.
All should be that way. After all, the company is already getting a tax deduction for what they match.

Real estate and stock market investors who have time on their side(10+ years) will ultimately profit from the
recovery. Those who have less than 10 years until retirement are in jeopardy.











4tees wrote:Many people I know have had the value of their 401ks plummet, screwing up their retirement plans in the process. I understand why people contributed to a stock based retirement plan, they were encouraged by some form of employer matching or incentive, but they should not have been enticed to save for retirement in this way. As I have stated repeatedly over the years, average Americans should steer clear of the stock market. They should have stayed out of real estate speculation too. They should have been encouraged to save their money or invest using only low risk instruments, not take out home equity loans and consume an unviable economic model into a mirage of sustainable growth.

Now more and more “industries” are clamoring to be “bailed out” in some way. Instead of holding themselves and the beneficiaries of their excess responsible, they are committing economic terrorism…….threatening massive job losses unless a ransom is paid; a ransom with no strings attached or forced accountability for the elite who caused this mess.

The reality is these are not bailouts, the money will not be used to correct the fundamental problems in our economy, instead it is one last big handout to the wealthy, who are taking this last opportunity to steal the last of our national wealth so that they can continue to live in excess while everyone else struggles and suffers. These people are criminals and traitors, and should be treated as such. They do not care if they destroy the United States, so long as their lifestyle continues. Unfortunately too many Americans are still too brainwashed or proud to admit we have been living a big “conservative” lie for decades. It’s been called capitalism, but it has never been anything close to its namesake much less a free market of any kind.
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Re: Bailout Fiasco

Postby 4tees » Mon Dec 29, 2008 10:34 am

You are assuming there will be a significant recovery over 10+ years, I think you are mistaken. Things may improve from near depression to mild recession in a year or three, but that's the best we can hope for for decades unless major structural changes in our economy are brought about, and that is unlikely to happen.

It's time for a house to be a home again, not an investment, and the stock market should be avoided like the plague, (it is still unrealistically inflated)
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Re: Bailout Fiasco

Postby etowah » Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:21 pm

4tees wrote:You are assuming there will be a significant recovery over 10+ years, I think you are mistaken. Things may improve from near depression to mild recession in a year or three, but that's the best we can hope for for decades unless major structural changes in our economy are brought about, and that is unlikely to happen.

It's time for a house to be a home again, not an investment, and the stock market should be avoided like the plague, (it is still unrealistically inflated)


Actually, I believe the recovery will start, slowly, late next year, in housing. The stock market will recover more slowly, especially the financial
sectors. For my part, I will not invest with any bank or insurance company that has taken taxpayer money.
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Re: Bailout Fiasco

Postby Yellow_Dog » Thu Jan 01, 2009 10:20 pm

4tees wrote:You are assuming there will be a significant recovery over 10+ years, I think you are mistaken. Things may improve from near depression to mild recession in a year or three, but that's the best we can hope for for decades unless major structural changes in our economy are brought about, and that is unlikely to happen.

It's time for a house to be a home again, not an investment, and the stock market should be avoided like the plague, (it is still unrealistically inflated)


I suspect you are right. The glory days are over, and I doubt they will ever return. Our education system is a cruel joke, and education is so critical for our ability to compete on the world state is all venues, with the possible exception of killing people half a world away remotely. War is the only thing we really export, we don't do that very well, and it is costing us the future of this country.

The mortgage mess is just the tipping point of the collapse, and the most visible symptom both on the news and as we drive down the street and see foreclosed signs. Fixing the mortgage (if we could actually afford to) will not stop the decline of our ability to compete where we must import damn everything we consume.
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Re: Bailout Fiasco

Postby 4tees » Fri Jan 02, 2009 10:40 am

Yellow_Dog wrote: I suspect you are right. The glory days are over, and I doubt they will ever return. Our education system is a cruel joke, and education is so critical for our ability to compete on the world state is all venues, with the possible exception of killing people half a world away remotely. War is the only thing we really export, we don't do that very well, and it is costing us the future of this country.

The mortgage mess is just the tipping point of the collapse, and the most visible symptom both on the news and as we drive down the street and see foreclosed signs. Fixing the mortgage (if we could actually afford to) will not stop the decline of our ability to compete where we must import damn everything we consume.


That is the crux of the matter......what do we produce in this country that is not produced somewhere else more cheaply and possibly better? Hell, what real goods do we produce at all besides weapons? The only significant industries we have left (other than weaponry) that "lead the world" are those that are medically related; and how long will it be before the rest of the world surpasses us there as well? Even our entertainment industry is losing ground; more and more of the best movies are being made overseas. How long before they say to hell with the big American studios and make the movies themselves? Not too much longer I bet.

What "conservatives" don't get is that we cannot "recover" when we are losing the means to compete with the rest of the world, while eating up the last vestiges of our once substantial national savings. Globalization has just been an excuse to sell out our national well being and competitiveness in exchange for a quick buck for those who already have too much unproductively gained and undeserved wealth.
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Re: Bailout Fiasco

Postby 4tees » Sat Jan 17, 2009 12:07 pm

It amazes me that everyone now acknowledges that the first $350B given to the financial sector was generally NOT used as it was supposed to be, yet they are still debating whether to give those same financial institutions more of the second half! Use the second half to bail out individual homeowners for heaven’s sake; at least that would have a direct stimulating effect on the economy. Giving more to corporations and their greedy drones and expecting it to fix or improve things has not worked for three decades, what evidence is there that a failed methodology will work this time?

The equally frustrating point is many of our representatives KNOW giving the money to the "elite" will not work, yet they are doing so anyway. This is a prime example of why I refuse to vote for a Democrat or Republican......they are all either so thoroughly corrupted or incompetent that they all should be thrown out of office. The only thing these "representatives" care about is their re-election at any cost, and playing their partisan games so they can be the ones abusing power while thumbing their noses at the American People.

If they want to begin fixing things they need to:
1) Use any bailout or stimulus money only for directly helping individual American citizens (the middle and working class only), and/or for directly creating jobs. Not a penny more should go to even a single corporation, investment entity, or bank.
2) Restore full bankruptcy protection for individuals.
3) Aggressively enhance and vigorously enforce anti-monopoly laws; break up these out of control mega-corporations before they make things even worse.
4) Restore the legal status of individuals to a higher level than that of corporations.
5) Institute tough consumer protection laws; especially in relation to credit
6) Aggressively pursue alternative energy technologies; both to reduce oil dependence, and to create a new industry that creates real jobs and where the US can lead the world. We can convert almost entirely in just a decade if we make it a true national priority.
7) Restrict key industries to a heavily regulated not-for-profit status, or nationalize them. (energy production, medical, insurance, etc.). We need to ensure the excessive profiteering currently present in these essential services does not continue put us at a competitive disadvantage with the rest of the developed world.
8 ) Not just restore funding to national level research programs, but create a massive national research infrastructure to ensure long term national economic well being and technological leadership.
9) Radically improve and update our public education system to circumvent the growingly irrelevant private college and university system we currently rely on. We need to provide publicly supported technical and scientific training well beyond our current high school level for all who are mentally capable and motivated, regardless of financial class. Leave private colleges to train those who fail to make it into these competitive public programs.
10) Restore trade protections for US industries who are forced to “compete” against nations with lower worker standards and human rights protections. We should not allow corporations to bring our working standards and standard of living down to the lowest common denominator (as they are now attempting to accomplish) in the name of short term profit for a select few. “Free trade” policy is a joke and a lie; it’s time to end it. Instead we need an “equalizing” trade policy; tariffs and taxes on foreign made goods to ensure artificially low costs are compensated for so American made goods can fairly compete based on quality, not on price only.
11) Rewrite our tax code. We need a tax system that is exceedingly difficult to cheat (meaning SIMPLE), encourages small business and individual innovation, yet discourages formation of anti-competitive large corporations, off shoring, and individual hoarding of assets.
12) Revise our military doctrine to one of defense only (as our founding father intended). Pull in and close ALL foreign bases, re-open or create new US bases that are dispersed in a strategically defensible manner, and only spend money and resources on systems of a purely defensive nature (begin dismantling our nuclear arsenal while developing a truly workable missile defense system). Our only goal should be to make our nation exceedingly difficult to attack, for conventional, nuclear, and terrorist forces and methods. Let the world police itself; we have accepted that responsibility and financial burden for far too long.
13) Revise our national foreign policy to ensure no American interests take advantage of anyone in the rest of the world. Ensure no one can deny that Americans are the fairest and most honorable people to deal with in the world. If we treat others with respect, yet maintain an overwhelming defensive capability, over time the focus of much of the world’s anger will be diverted elsewhere.
14) Completely revise our process of electing representatives.
15) I’m sure there is much more but I’ve gotta go for now.
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Re: Bailout Fiasco

Postby etowah » Sat Jan 17, 2009 4:19 pm

[quote="4tees"]

That is the crux of the matter......what do we produce in this country that is not produced somewhere else more cheaply and possibly better? Hell, what real goods do we produce at all besides weapons?


Metal products manufacture for one : www.byersprecision.com/

Also, see my post under the local section of the Board Index about a rug manufacuring company in Hendersonville
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Re: Bailout Fiasco

Postby 4tees » Thu Jan 22, 2009 1:55 pm

Both metal parts and textile manufacturing has declined steadily and rapidly in our country. That a few still hang on is evidence of the tenacity of some Americans, and a sign of the ability for far more manufacturing if we would change our priorities.
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Re: Bailout Fiasco

Postby etowah » Sat Jan 24, 2009 11:07 pm

4tees wrote:Both metal parts and textile manufacturing has declined steadily and rapidly in our country. That a few still hang on is evidence of the tenacity of some Americans, and a sign of the ability for far more manufacturing if we would change our priorities.


Specialization and differentiation is the key for successful American manfacturing, demonstrated by both of these companies.
And, this wire manufacturing company in Mountain Home www.spoke.com/info/c5lFCTc/HaynesWireCo
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Re: Bailout Fiasco

Postby 4tees » Sat Jan 24, 2009 11:44 pm

There is only so much you can rely on specialization. Before too long some cheaper foreign company or outsourced "US" company will decide to get in on "your" specialized market. The only successful way to differentiate is with quality; and an emphasis on quality reduces short term profitability, so it will be unlikely for US companies to differentiate themselves in this manner.

There is no way around it, we can not compete against unfair foreign labor markets; so we must take measures to protect our national best interests from them and those who exploit them for their personal gain. We need to greatly expand tariffs and punish US companies that outsource.
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Re: Bailout Fiasco

Postby etowah » Sun Jan 25, 2009 6:03 pm

4tees wrote:There is only so much you can rely on specialization. Before too long some cheaper foreign company or outsourced "US" company will decide to get in on "your" specialized market. The only successful way to differentiate is with quality; and an emphasis on quality reduces short term profitability, so it will be unlikely for US companies to differentiate themselves in this manner.

There is no way around it, we can not compete against unfair foreign labor markets; so we must take measures to protect our national best interests from them and those who exploit them for their personal gain. We need to greatly expand tariffs and punish US companies that outsource.


Next time I'm in WNC, I'll visit one or more of the companies I cited, and report my findings to the forum. :idea:
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Re: Bailout Fiasco

Postby 4tees » Sun Mar 15, 2009 8:38 pm

Can you believe the gaul of AIG paying out 165 million to execs after receiving more than 150 BILLION in bailout money!!!!! Talk about giving the average american the middle finger and a big F#%K You very much! I truly can't believe that any Americans still support and idolize the greedy traitorous bastards that run most of the financial institutions and other large corporations in our nation. Most of these people should truly be found guilty of treason and placed in work gangs for life; they have done more harm to our nation than every spy in history combined. They don't deserve bonuses, they deserve a lifetime of jail time.
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Re: Bailout Fiasco

Postby etowah » Sun Mar 15, 2009 8:43 pm

As Larry Summers pointed out, these bonuses were contractual obligations.
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